Is Miata the answer?

"Old Red Wagon" (wr10) 01/14/2019 at 23:41 • Filed to: None

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Looking for a small, fun car to daily and looking at an NC Miata Club or an ND Club . The NC is not the most loved Miata but I actually really like it. If I get the NC I’m looking for the power retractable hard top only. With the ND, only the RF will have a hardtop of some kind which bumps the price up a bit. I’m okay with the soft top on the ND if I go that route. NC has the advantage as far as price goes. It’s a solid $3-$5k cheaper than the ND.

My other option is an s2000. Prefer the AP2 but would get an AP1 if I find a good example for a good price. I’ve driven an s2000 a few times but have never driven an NC or ND. Hoping to test drive them both soon to get a feel for both and then make up my mind. Has anyone here driven all three? Just looking for input from anyone.

Nibby > Old Red Wagon 01/14/2019 at 23:55

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https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/farmingville-1987-bmw-e30-325i/6789604458.html

Old Red Wagon > Nibby 01/15/2019 at 00:21

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I have this already so no need for another e30

Milky > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 00:58

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I’ve drove all 3 (and the 124) over the span of a couple months, ended up in a ND Club soft top.

Its not the NC’s fault that its old, came out in 2005 after all. But if you’re DDing it the newer interior alone seems worth it. The RF is nice, no “ifs” or “buts” about it . Just doesn’t seem worth it price wise to me.

I’ve done 40k miles in a year and half and couldn’ t be happier.

WRXforScience > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 01:14

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How about one of the 86 twins? I’d recommend a 2015+ with the 6-speed manual. Faster than an NC, about as fast as an ND, and cheaper than an S2k. Plus you can fit stuff in the trunk and have an extra emergency seat for people you don’t like or only need to transport short distances (or people either without legs or who you dislike and want to punish on long trips).

Of course, if you want a convertible I’d steer you towards an older, lower spec NC that you can modify if you want (the premium you pay for a moderate upgrade isn’t really worth it and you can do better for not much more with the aftermarket).

Very nice NC’s can be had for $10k or less, while you’re looking at $16k+ for an ND. An AP2 S2k is going to either cost you $18k+ upfront, or will need the difference put into it to revive it from its sorry state.

The answer depends on what you want the car to do, how much you want to spend, and if you want/need a convertible or space. The NC and ND drive similarly but there is a notice able upgrade with the ND in feel and response (the NC has a roomier cabin and is easier to fit in, which can be an issue if you are over 6ft or 250lbs). The S2k is much sharper than either, but can be a bit of a rattle and shake fest if you’re just commuting or on a road trip. None of the 3 can fit more than a couple of bags of groceries and are cozy with a passenger of any noteworthy size.

An 86 twin is between an ND and S2k for driving feel, sharper than the Miata with more purpose and poise but not quite as honed or raw as an S2k (the Honda is like balancing on a knife’s edge, you get it right and you are in driving bliss but if you stray at all you spin ) .

I’d choose a BRZ again since I use it as an only car (22 track days and 20 autocrosses last year and about 12k miles commuting). For a track only car, I’d go with a cheap NC and throw on some track upgrades. The S2k costs too much, you can find Cayman/Boxsters for the going rate on S2k’s and you end up with a better car. The ND is a bit of a wildcard, it gets shafted by the new version in most classes for racing/autox but if you just want a weekend car that might see a track or autox a couple of times a year it might just work.

Old Red Wagon > WRXforScience 01/15/2019 at 02:02

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Very  thorough response. Thank you very much. I actually looked at the twins as well as the Toyota 86. I’ve yet to drive one and will actually add it to the list. The car will be a daily but my commute will be short so I'm not really worried much about comfort from any of them. I'm going to eventually mod whatever I buy. Mostly suspension work. Don't really plan on adding any power to anything. Been down that road and it's never ending. Would like to do a few track days a year so whatever car I end up with it will definitely see some track time.

Nick Has an Exocet > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 02:19

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I would probably go ND. NC if you need the extra room, but you might kick yourself for not getting an ND. Also, it’s arguable that the top on the ND is better (by virtue of being super fast/user friendly) is better than the PHRT.

Khalbali > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 07:22

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I bought a cheap NC instead of waiting for the ND I had ordered. I loved it for a couple years, put over 40k on it, but am old and tired of it now especially now that I live in Chicago and not Denver.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Khalbali 01/15/2019 at 09:36

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What’s next?

WRXforScience > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 10:04

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For the track, the BRZ/FRS/86 has two distinct advantages: 1) being a coupe it doesn’t require the addition of a roll cage and has fewer rules/restrictions to get on track and 2) you can fit a full set of track wheels, tools, and everything you need in the back with the seats folded down so you don’t need a tire trailer or a tow vehicle.

My BRZ is a blast at the track, I’ve done coilovers, swaybars, headers and a tune (gets rid of the torque dip), big brakes up front, and wheels and tires. With those mods I’ve got a comfortable daily driver (rides as well or maybe better than stock) and a capable track car.

None of the cars you listed is a bad decision though, and really they are close enough that personal preference is going to be one of the biggest deciding factors (unless you just don’t fit in the ND, which is a possibility since they’re small).

Arrivederci > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 10:41

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Get the S2000 - it’s the only one that either has a flat depreciation curve or will be worth more when you’re done with it.  Buy one and drive it for damn near free.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Nibby 01/15/2019 at 11:40

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you almost had me

no thank you 

Nibby > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 01/15/2019 at 11:48

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AUTOMAGIC MASTER RACE

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Nibby 01/15/2019 at 12:10

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

GuerrillaWheels > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 12:14

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I’ve owned an NC and now own an na miata. Haven’t driven the new generation but I am sure they are a pleasure. The NC I owned was a 2006 top of the line. So not the sportiest but very comfy. I also drove an NC sport before I bought mine and have driven a friends modified NC hardtop.

My observations:

No need to get a new miata. They are so reliable and cheap to fix if anything goes wrong. Bless the people who buy them new but you don’t need to be one of them.

Go hard top. Wind noise is much reduced, there is hardly any weight penalty (if any) and it turns it into a much more reliable year-round car.

The NC also is a true daily driver level car. Unlike the previous gens and the ND it actually has a usable trunk. I just did a five hour round trip in my NA over the weekend and it was fine but I did dozens of long distance trips in my NC and it’s just so much more of a real car and less of a toy.

The s2000 is a wild card. If you want something that’s going to appreciate in value go for it. But you’re going to have less of a sporty feel of torque and also be dealing with a much older vehicle. Plus no hardtop option.

So in short - if you're going to actually daily it and have it as your only car the NC (especially in clubs port spec) is a great option and a continued sweet spot for the range. I also see them going for 15k or so. That's a damn bargain! 

GuerrillaWheels > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 12:16

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One thing to remember with the hard top is that there isn't any good rollbar option out there. 

Khalbali > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/15/2019 at 12:35

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I dunno, probably just a cheap beater, really trying to cut down on living expenses, my wife isn't working at the moment. Right now the top contender is an $800 crown Vic.

Old Red Wagon > Milky 01/15/2019 at 12:39

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Wow, that’s a ton of mileage you put on. Must be a great car. Yeah as much as i love the RF the extra cost isn’t really worth it to me. Put them next to each other for the same price the RF all day but i can’t justify spending an extra $3k or so for it. Still can’t wait to test everything and see what i end up with. 

Old Red Wagon > GuerrillaWheels 01/15/2019 at 12:42

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I am definitely going used with whatever i get. Yeah i watched my friends NA for him while he went out of town for a month and drove it from time to time. I had such a fun time driving the thing on the few days i took it to work.

If i do go the NC route it will defintely be a Club spec with the hardtop. I love the NC styling and the power hardtop is a big plus between all three options. Now i know i can get the ND RF but the price difference between th two is about $6-$8k. I’d have to be absolutely in love with the ND RF to justify that big of a price difference. 

Not a Sunburst Miata > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 12:51

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I love my BRZ. For slightly cheaper than the RF, I got the 2017 performance package. It has all the comfort goodies, leather heated seats, digital climate control, etc that the base 86 doesnt come with. the performance package also added slightly stiffer Sachs ZF dampers, forged 7.5" wide wheels, and Brembo brakes on all 4 corners. The brakes alone were worth the upgrade since this was a track/dual duty car for the first 18 months I had it.

I picked it over the RF because it was capable of fitting a full set of wheels/tires, a jack, a cooler, as well as a decently sized tool box. I could drive to the track, swap the wheels/tires/brake pads, drive really fast, swap the streets back on and drive home.

The only suspension mods I did were RCE lowering springs and Vorshlag camber plates. I added aftermarket rear control arms to match the camber to the fronts. It corners like its on rails and is still comfortable. I’ve since added many power mods (TURBO!!!) and love it. I’m never getting rid of this car.

After the turbo install, I realized that breaking it on track would inevitably mean expensive repairs, and after one particularly scary incident involving a defective oil cooler line and a small fire, I purchased a 91 NA Miata as my track car. 

Textured Soy Protein > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 12:59

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I had an NB many moons ago. If I were to get another Miata, it would probably be a white or red NC Club PHRT.

The ND RF doesn’t appeal to me at all with its power targa top and huge pillars behind you that never go away. I want a convertible, not a targa .

I could see getting an ND Club with the Brembo/BBS package, but t he NC is much more livable as a daily or even a toy for occasional road trips . When it comes to things like usable storage nooks and crannies and cupholders in the interior, the ND is trash.

The NA and NB are roughly equivalent when it comes to interior room but my shoulders are too wide for the shape of the NA doors. The transmission tunnel is reasonably small and the beltline is way low. The NC is a little roomier than the NB but it’s got a higher beltline . The ND is somewhere between the NB and NC. 

The S2k even though it’s a bigger car than Miatas is actually more cramped inside because of the transmission tunnel and chassis reinforcements in the floor.

Spuce Bringsteen > Arrivederci 01/15/2019 at 12:59

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The S2000 interior is hokey at best. Dates back to the early 2000 Civics. I LOVE Hondas but the $$$ these are going for doesn’t merit a purchase. I have a 2010 PRHT and love it. If you’re going with an ND, soft  top is the way to go for a real open air experience.   Plus on the MD soft top it’s a pretty solid top.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Milky 01/15/2019 at 13:45

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Damn it I wish I fit in that car. I’m (optimistically) hoping the telescopic wheel in the ‘ 19 helps , but I just can’t make it a daily with how I fit. :(

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Khalbali 01/15/2019 at 14:19

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Hard to beat cheap! Good luck finding the right one - I hope it serves you well. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 14:37

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I did not like how super impractical the RF was. I could BARELY fit two carryon size bags in the trunk and there is ZERO storage inside the car. The roof butt resses take away any ability to store stuff behind the seats or underneath the window with the top up or down. My NB is fine for grocery trips and longer vacations with the luggage rack. But I can also fit much larger suitcases in the trunk as well. Then because the top doesnt really go down, you dont even get the full convertible experience either. I LOVED the car itself and it was perfect with the top up. But I would 100% just go soft top ND for sure in that case. The ND is an amazing platform and I enjoy it. Would strongly consider buying one if I wanted to spend that much. Would be a strong debate between an ND and an 86 twin in that price bracket.

I havent actually driven an NC but I just cant get past how big they are. I am still an NA/NB fan to the fullest. But that is talking different needs at that point generally.

S2k I drove was kind of a janky Turo car but I did enjoy it still. Enjoy it more than a Miata? Not really, especially for the price these command. It was just so much less dailyable since it felt like it had less guts than a Miata below 4/5k rpms. Way a bove that it was special as hell though.

I’d say if you really want a Miata for the “full miata experience” get an ND. The 2019s have to be making the earlier NDs sell for real cheap soon. But if you can enjoy the NC and want more of a “car” than a “miata” then that is the way to go to save some coin. 

Milky > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 14:47

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Test drive them all!  I’m happy I did.  

rbtskmp > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 15:08

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I have a 2010 NC (PRHT). It’s been my daily driver for about 3 years. I cross shopped with NAs, NBs and also s2000s. Originally purchased it with only daily driving in mind but since then I have gotten into autocross the last 2 years and track days the last year or so. Been VERY happy with it as a do all vehicle. Very reliable (bought it with 50K miles and have 7 5K now), relatively comfortable (even with coilovers), and very fun to drive.

The only reason I would be hesitant about recommending it is that unless you are running in the beginner group and only with certain organizations, that a rollbar is required. Soft top is a non issue but the there is very little clearance for a rollbar with the PRHT. GCFabrications has a supposed option that works (few have it yet) and a few have gone custom to overcome this. Just something to keep in mind depending on how much you plan on tracking it.

The ND was barely coming out when I bought my car and the RF wasn’t even out now. If purchasing now, unless I could get a hell of a deal I probably still wouldn’t have gone with an ND. Being in a hot summer climate with no garage, every soft top car I come across has the top faded and beat to hell were I live. The RF, although it looks great, I don’t really consider a full convertible and the full open experience is something that can’t be replicated with it.

Friendlyghost1 > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 15:24

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I had a ap1 s2000 a while ago, while its a great looking and reliable car, it prone to spinout easily unless your an advance driver. The nc miata I now have is more fun since i can drive it at the l imit more often than the s2k without having to worry about crashing or spinning out.

BarryDanger > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 15:40

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I’ve driven a 1.8 turbo NA, NC, (early) ND RF and soft top - each and every one had it’s merits and disadvantages.

At 6'2", I found the headroom in the RF to be a deal-breaker. Without constricting my legs or going with a gangster lean, my head rubbed the the roof. I’d go with the soft top or have to swap the RF driver seat if I went with the ND.

The NC was the slowest and heaviest but I really like the looks and the interior space with the hard top. I think if I were living with one - I’d go with a club with the NC club hard top. It looks like this is the way you are leaning.

The turbo NA I drove was listed for sale via craigslist. It had a stand alone ECU, coilovers and some sticky rubber. This was definitely the most raw and exciting MX-5 I’ve driven as you’d expect. The car seemed to go in to warp speed at full throttle and boost! I’d love to have one of these as a project.

GuerrillaWheels > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 15:57

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The RF also adds a fair amount of weight and still has the ND problems that come with it that include a small trunk and tight(er) interior. The other major issue you need to think of is that used NDs have that lower horsepower number and are going to be saddled with that reputation moving forward when it comes to resale.

The NC at its end in the spec you’re interested in is more of a drivers car than the ND you’d be looking at. I’ll stand by that statement.

B_dol > Old Red Wagon 01/15/2019 at 19:22

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The NA, NB and NC generation Miata never really did it for me - so I ended up in an FRS/BRZ for 55K miles. Great car, tons of utility and a real easy transition to HPDE.

A few years later my wife ended up buying an ND miata and I will say that thing is a real joy to drive, more so than my FRS ever was. Slightly better tuning and top down fun!

hkimsd > Old Red Wagon 01/16/2019 at 12:16

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Drove all three (club versions for both Miatas, NC in hardtop) in 2017. I ended up with a 2005 s2000 ap2 with 30k miles for about $23k out the door. The comparison was closer than I expected since all three cars are similarly quick. The main factors that led me to the s2000 was the engine hitting an 8200 rpm redline, and the car’s future depreciation. The Honda’s engine just seemed to feel more refined and lived for the revs, while the Miata engines lived lower in the rev range and was not confidence inspiring at redline. S2000 values are actually appreciating instead of depreciating like with the Miatas’ values. If I were to go Miata, I would go with the hardtop NC club as there is no compromise as with the RF. The NC hardtop gives you all the benefits of a hard top without obstructing your views outward for about $5-10k less. The ND is my favorite aesthetically for the Miata family...

Old Red Wagon > hkimsd 01/16/2019 at 18:43

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Appreciate your input. This is actually the route I’m going down. Still going to test drive the ND but I think I’m going to end up with an NC Club with the hardtop or an s2000. I love the idea of the hardtop with the NC so that  is a big plus.